Sunday, September 10, 2006

So Where's The Times and their Lefty Pals on THIS Story?

Guess it's just not important news anymore, is it?


"The witness said that even in the thieves’ section prisoners were being treated badly. ”Someone was shouting ‘Please help us, we want the human rights officers, we want the Americans to come back’," he said."

Imagine that!


  1. The right doesn't even realize how much ground they've lost when their defense of America amounts to "We're better than the worst."

  2. The left doesn't even realize how badly the rest of the world treats people when compared to us.
    We're defending that we treat people better than the rest because of our moral decency, not that we're just a smidgen above the worst.
    You haven't a clue about the real world, do you, Roch?

  3. Isn't it funny how Roch ALWAYS MISSES the point?

    We have stopped being surprised when he does that.

  4. I'm with Roch. I don't know if you remember, but that was the kind of behavior that we were trying to overthrow. Is this a victory in ANY sense of the word? I think not. Man, did we do a great job of training the Iraqis to secure their country.

    I am amazed that you guys can take any solace from this story. We are better than most of the world, but better isn't what our charge is. Our charge is to be the best. If tortured prisoners is our measuring stick, we'll win every time. What we strive for is perfection and excellence. I'm afraid that we have fallen short several times here. A. G. is one of our worst moments as a nation and we should all be ashamed for what those soldiers did. And we should be ashamed of what is going on there now. And here you are, using the argument of comparative evils.

    "Sure your honor, I raped her, but at least I didn't kill her"

  5. Another great example of missing the point, this time from penguin.

    Once again, WHERE is the lefty outrage over this story? Is it not important, because it's not something the Evil Bush Empire is doing?

    Is it just not important for the Lame Stream Media, and is just a distraction from their true task, exposing another Bush intelligence program intended to protect the nation?

  6. penguin, please provide some evidence for your outrageous claims:
    1)That we did NOT do a good job training Iraqis to defend their country
    2)That our government, as a matter of policy or procedure, has done anything to prisoners that's been adjudicated "torture" by any legal authority or accepted legal definition. (I'm not talking about individual illegal acts which were prosecuted in a court of law)
    3)What IS going on now that we should be ashamed of? Please elaborate.

    Otherwise, you're just spewing illogical and unsubstantiated hot air again. And I thought penguins were cold-weather animals...

  7. Undeniably, the guys running A.G. were trained by the former management (us). If today, months after the turnover, there are torture chambers run by Iraqis, we failed in our training of those people.

    I am talking about what our soldiers (individuals) did in A.G. to Iraqis. Whatever the orders or breakdown thereof, to the world we screwed up as a country. I never claimed that we tortured, although it may be revealed that we have.

    We should be ashamed of how our soldiers abused Iraqi prisoners and, if true, we should be ashamed that the torture rooms have been reopened under new management.

  8. penguin, we were rightly ashamed that individual soldiers committed criminal acts at Abu Ghraib. And these soldiers were swiftly prosecuted and convicted in military courts-martials. We cleaned up our own mess.
    The media, ever vigilant for another My Lai type incident with which to skewer the Bush administration, would have us believe that the world thought we screwed up. The Iraqis I talked to in Iraq at the time of the AG revelations understood that rotten apples are found in most barrels. It's human nature and will continue to occur as long as human beings exist.
    And do you know for a fact that the Iraqis currently running AG were trained by us, or are you "assuming" this? Since you state that it is "undeniable" how about proving that statement? What unit trained them, where, how long was the training? Do you have a copy of the course syllabus, a list of instructors, and do you have personal knowledge that this happened? Don't state something as a fact if you can't back it up. I'm chiding you because of the way you made this statement. Just because the Lamestream Media tells you something (or Harry Reid) don't accept it as fact.

  9. Penguin has none of those things.

    He/she/it needs a name change to "Parrot".

  10. So let me get this straight. I have to tell you the unit that trained the Iraqi guards that we turned over AG to? You want syllabi and schedules? That is rich.

    How about I use W's speech on May 24th, 2004:

    "A new Iraq will also need a humane, well-supervised prison system. Under the dictator, prisons like Abu Ghraib were symbols of death and torture. That same prison became a symbol of disgraceful conduct by a few American troops who dishonored our country and disregarded our values."

    It sounds like we are talking responsibility for building their prison system, and not just construction-wise.

    Or this is a more current article:

    ABU GHRAIB, Iraq (Sept. 3, 2006) -- As the American flag descended, the Iraqi sun rose.

    Friday morning soldiers from 2nd Battalion, 4th Brigade, 1st Iraqi Army Division assumed control of the Abu Ghraib prison from U.S. Army Task Force 134. Iraqi soldiers will provide security for the facility until the Iraqi Ministry of Justice dispatches its own security detail.


    Further, just because I didn't include the source for all of my statements doesn't mean that they are less valid. There are several "factual" statements made by jc and bub every day that are not only flawed and unsourced, but I think knowingly skewed.

    Example; Please show me how badly the rest of the world treats people compared to us. Are we talking about the whole world, the security council nations, the G8? Which would you like to compare us to? Which metics would you like to use? Recidivism? Incarceration rate? Deaths in custody? Overall sense of well-being?

    How about our moral decency? Are we really significantly more moral than Sweden, Italy or India? Tell me how you know that we are more decent than the rest of the world. I know lots of people throughou the world and almost to a person, they are decent, moral people. Doesn't matter if they are Muslim, Hindu, Christian or Mormon. What sort of slanted view of the rest of the world leads you to the view that we have cornered the market on moral decency?

    Finally, if my source is correct, the prison was turned over on September 3rd and it was empty at the time... I wonder how quickly the Iraqis can really get in there, fill it up and begin the trampling of everything we have fought for in Iraq. Somethings rotten in Baghdad.

  11. penguin, you stated something as a FACT, i.e., that is was "undeniable" that the US trained the Iraqi forces that took over control of Abu Ghraib.
    Please prove that statement.
    You may do that by either documenting your personal knowledge of having seen or participated in that training, or reference a source that states this is the truth.
    Otherwise, it's just an "assumption" on your part.
    Learn the difference between facts and opinions and get back to us on this, OK?

  12. typical right-wing idiocy. shall we identify fact from here on out as things that we have personally witnessed? Obviously, I cannot claim that Kennedy was assasinated. Or that we won WWII.

    Or we can do what you and Bubba do. Toss things out there and make others prove that it is wrong. I think I'll take that strategy.

    If the story that started this thread is true. Our military failed to properly train the Iraqis that took over the prison. Please feel free to prove me wrong with any facts that you can dig up.

  13. penguin, I'm just asking you to prove your claim.
    You had to obtain that information somewhere, where did it come from?
    I don't think it's unreasonable to ask you to prove something you claim is an "undeniable" fact.
    When you cite something as fact, you had to have learned it somewhere, right? So where did the "undeniable" fact come from?
    Inquiring minds want to know..

  14. "I don't think it's unreasonable to ask you to prove something you claim is an "undeniable" fact."

    You forget that people like Parrot don't have to prove ANYTHING they say, jaycee.

    The mere fact that they SAY IT is basis enough to require all others to believe it.

    The same standard of proof they like to apply to us obviously doesn't apply to them.

    The De Facto Lefty/Lib Debating Tactics Manual says so.

  15. bubba, I was trying to have a rational discussion with someone suffering from Bush Derangement Syndrome, a futile effort at best.
    I apologize for wasting valuable bandwidth arguing with parrot.